Maggie
Hello everyone. Welcome. Today is a very special day on the podcast. Just imagine Hollywood rolling out the red carpet for the superstars. That is how I feel about today’s episode and I’m so excited for you to join us. My very special guest today is Lacey Sites. She is a former therapist who is now a business mentor and success coach for high performing women entrepreneurs. She is the founder of A Lit Up Life and the host of the Literally podcast. Lacey was my personal coach when I was still doing recruitment, consulting, and transitioning into life coaching. We finished our work together and then this past year she hired me to be her coach. And I cannot tell you what an amazing feeling it is to have your mentors become your clients. It is a sacred sacred honor. And I am just beside myself with excitement and glee to welcome Lacey to the podcast, welcome Lacey.
Lacey
I am so happy to be here.
Maggie
So today we’re going to talk a little bit about just your experience. And also because you have that beautiful breadth of experience, having been a therapist and having a coach, I’m going to ask you all kinds of questions. So tell me a little bit about why you decided you wanted to work on your relationship and work with me specifically.
Lacey
Yeah. So for me, I had gotten divorced. Gosh, when did I get divorced? I think 2017 ish, let’s say and then I had like taken you know some time to obviously go through that and then it started dating again. And when I hired you I had met my now fiance, and I really felt like you know, he was the one like this is really special, but I just kept finding myself like really engaging in old behavior, old patterns that were not feeling good to me and I could kind of see like, this isn’t really about our relationship like I could feel that it was like so much about suffering the past and suffer my divorce that I hadn’t healed.
Lacey
So I was like really excited to hire you in particular, because I, you know, share your philosophy about like, one person can change the whole and I didn’t feel like it was even necessarily appropriate for Kenny to join me at that point because if I could feel like Yes, I’m engaging in this pattern with him, but it’s not about him. Like it’s about the past stuff I’m bringing do you know what I mean? Absolutely. And I just remember like coming to you and being like, I can see what’s on the other side of this like I see on the other side of this is where like, we get engaged is where my brain stops spinning about relationship stuff all the time, but I like really need help walking through that.
Maggie
Yeah, absolutely. And as we think about some of the work that we did together, we’ll go through some of the things that stood out the most for you but off the top of your head, what is like one of the things It was just like, Oh, this was really useful. And I really want people to know about this.
Lacey
Yeah, I think it was you know, you gave me that Susan Page book, Why Talking Is Not Enough, is that right? Yeah.
Maggie
So we’ll link to that in the show notes. There’s a book that I love called Why Talking Is Not Enough. And I often refer my clients to that book. Mm-hmm.
Lacey
And that, like, just started a huge shift for me, because it was kind of like, so I come from therapy world, therapy background, and I feel like you know, I’m using some broad generalization here. So this is not meant to be offensive in any way. But I feel like in that seems like it kind of is portrayed that like the solution to all relationship problems is more communication. Mm-hmm. And I’m like an epic communicator. Like I’ll communicate all day, I will give you all the context, I will tell you all the things like I will talk to you for hours. And in some ways, that was actually what was standing in my way and so the context and permission not have to over-communicate every single thing that I was thinking was like really a breath of fresh air. And then an offshoot of that, I think was not having to have Kenny understand every single thing I’m thinking, yeah.
Maggie
Okay, let’s talk about that. Because that’s a concept that I’ve started developing behind the scenes with like science, including when we were working together. And now, the more that I’ve thought about it and developed it and experimented with it, the more I am just absolutely convinced that it’s so important. And I call it understanding does not equal love. So like our modern society tells us, you know, and even Oprah says this, and you know how I feel about Oprah? She says her deepest need is to be seen, heard, and understood, right? It’s like one of the things she says, and I think about it like a yes and situation like totally. That is true. And understanding does not equal love. So what is your experience like? I presented that to you. What was your experience of considering that and processing that? Can you share a little bit about that?
Lacey
Yeah, it’s so interesting because like, in my business, right, like, in my work as a coach, I felt like that’s my greatest skill is to make people feel seen heard and understood. Mm-hmm. Like, I think that that’s like maybe the thing I’m like, best at and coaching. And so, in a way, there was like some processing that had to occur around not because it was almost like, but this is the thing I’m best at what do you mean, that’s not like? Nothing, right?
Maggie
Yeah. Even Oprah said, so!
Lacey
Yeah, like, come on. But I think you’re totally right, that it’s an and. And I think it’s also applicable to this type of relationship outside of coaching. I think sometimes where I would get tripped up in a relationship is I was almost trying to apply like, well, this is how I showed up as a coach and so this is how I’m showing up in my relationship and I think that was what was like tripping me up but in terms of the understanding piece, like Yeah, I just, I’m like a big believer in like, I’ll do anything if it feels, okay. And the truth is, as soon as I like, let go of this thing that like Kenny has to understand me. And if he doesn’t, something’s wrong, like it just felt way better. But that’s pretty much the gist, you know what I mean by so it’s like try it on and see if it feels way better and it did for me.
Maggie
So one of the things I always say is like my bias is what works. Like if it works, let’s do it more. And the idea of understanding does not equal love is this. It’s like, I don’t understand how electricity works. I love the effectively just don’t write, I don’t know how a plane can be in the air and make me travel from Miami to LA but I’ve done that flight, you know, 100 times, right? It’s like we can love something without fully understanding it. And we can let a person love us even if they don’t fully understand us and because our modern society tells us the most important thing is to be understood. When we’re not understood we have this feeling like, Oh, this must be wrong must be bad, as opposed to skipping straight to love and saying, Oh, this person loves me so much. They don’t even need to understand me. They’re like, I don’t care that I don’t know why you want to go watch, you know, Hugh Jackman in concert, which is something I would want to do, right? I’m just going with you. Because I love you, right.
Lacey
I also think it’s one of those things too, where it’s like, for me, that’s where the communication part came into. Because I was like, well, I’ll just communicate until you understand. Right? Right, you know, and it felt like beating a dead horse sometimes. So it was just so not useful, right? It’s like, I felt like well, like I’ll just tell you it and like five other ways or come at it 10 different times. And I feel like you know, in terms of my relationship, like that made me do is almost like want to back away, right? Because it was like, I’m like, shoving it down his throat. So it just like became so obvious, you know, after that, then you know, stepping back from that, but like, actually like the less I push on it, you know, the more he does understand.
Maggie
Yeah, which is fascinating, right when we relax, it’s like our partners relax with us, which is so amazing. And something I want to touch upon that you mentioned earlier that I see a lot in a lot of my clients is the idea of the roles we play in our lives, the roles we play at work or in business, and the roles we play at home. And so like, some of my clients are like, engineers or doctors, I always say, you know, if the measurement is wrong, the bridge will fall. So being right or being or in your case, your coach, understanding someone else is critical, right? But you do so then to go home and say, Oh, I could be wrong. I don’t, this is not a bridge gonna fall. Right to understand that we could be playing a different role and in that role, the thing we do for work isn’t necessarily the thing we should do at home, right is something that I don’t think we ever really talked about as a whole as a society. And I think bringing that to light brings so much relief. What do you think?
Lacey
Yeah, I mean completely I think that it reminds me a little bit of the Esther Perel thing that we’ve talked about a few times where she talks about how like your partner cannot be everything to you like your best friend and your business partner and your lover and you are whatever, like all the things we expect from like modern-day relationships, and I think it’s almost that too like your role can’t be the same everywhere right? You can’t like be the lover and the coach and friend and the partner in that like it just doesn’t translate very well and I think that it’s actually helped me I think almost enjoy all aspects of my life more because I have been able to like create that separation where I’m not like I always like joke now because they can see it differently.
Lacey
God gave me Kenny because I can like be on coaching calls and like see here Understand people all day, and then I can get awesome, like not have to deal with another emotional wave. He’s like, I’m good. You know what I mean? So it’s just been like, cool to not see it as like, I think when I first started working with you, I almost saw that as a negative, you know, like, Oh my gosh, like, I have this gift. And like, I want to, you know, bring it everywhere. And now I’m like, Oh, my God, it’s actually the gift that I don’t have to.
Maggie
That is so powerful. Exactly. And it’s the same thing. In all the different roles that we have is like, this is the place where I get to take a break. This is the place where I don’t have to be right or someone will be hurt or something that will happen. I think that’s so so, so important. And then one of the things that we talked about a lot, which I am calling now emotional leadership. I’m like, this needs a name that’s beaming you. I love naming things. Love it. So emotional leadership is like, understanding that the reason you do something about your relationship is because you’re the one who cares about this issue. It’s taking emotional leadership. So I know it’s certainly in my community. And then like science and the conversations that we’ve had is, why do I have to be the one that does something? Will, you speak to your experience of that a little bit.
Lacey
Yeah, I think that I mean, I just don’t know almost anyone who has a relationship thing that doesn’t initially think it’s their partner’s problem. Like, know what I mean. Or like, if he would just or if she would just like that, like, then all the problems would go away, and the issues would be solved. And so I think I’m lucky in that I do coaching all the time. So I can see like, everyone thinks our business has a problem. And it’s like, well, it might be you, you know what?
Lacey
So I think I like was able to fast forward a little bit and myself where I saw that, and Kenny and then I was like, Ah, it’s probably me, and the more I looked at it, I kind of realized that but I mean, I think it does take a lot to almost then have to own that in front of your partner to like, hey, it might be me. So I’m going to go like work on this separately because it just feels so much better. If you’re like No, it’s for sure you. Yeah, right. So much more comfortable. But I actually feel like that was like a really big turning point in our relationship too, because I think Kenny really saw me like, want to make it work. And I think, you know, like, really, like, appreciate it and honor that. And me and like, I think he almost immediately made a shift just in seeing like how much I wanted to do something about it.
Maggie
I love that so much. And it’s really such a great segue to talking about how one person can transform a relationship. And I think you just such a great example. Like when I decided I was gonna work on me, it’s like he immediately shifted to and it’s not like you sat down and had a conversation about it or anything like that. It was him seeing that commitment in you. So tell me a little bit about your experience of being like the person who was focused, let’s say on making some tweaks and changes in the relationship and your experience of being the one person who took the emotional need. and transform the relationship just doing the work on your own.
Lacey
I feel like what I did is like it really took, honestly, it sounds weird because it almost would seem the opposite. But it really took the pressure off me. Which seems weird because like you would think like, oh, now you’re the one working on it and whatever. But in so many ways, I feel like it just like turn the pressure gauge all the way down because I was just able to kind of like look at myself and handle it within myself instead of like, almost like trying to control him or trying to have something changed or like, it feels like the pressure just kind of like really shifted like pretty quickly. And again, it sounds funny because it’s like, well, but you’re the one taking it on but it’s like as soon as I took that ownership like it just made everything so much simpler. And I think that it really allowed me to enjoy my relationship so much more.
Maggie
I’ve done this enough times that it’s not expected to me Right. But isn’t it interesting and expected things like, oh, the moment that I just decided it’s me and I can do stuff with myself? It’s like, oh, now we can relax and just enjoy each other. Isn’t that like a fascinating thing to see?
Lacey
It’s so true. And I mean, like, you know, just you and I talked about this all the time. But I see that parallel with business clients all the time to like, it just works everywhere. Like as soon as you’re like, Okay, I don’t have to obsess over like every detail of this business. Like I can kind of like, look at some of my stuff here and take responsibility like it is amazing what can happen.
Maggie
And then the changes. This is something that I see in relationships that I know that you see it in business, too, is we are sort of living in a very linear focused society, like we think, Oh, it’s going to take 573 steps to climb that mountain. But the moment we own it, you almost take these quantum leaps that you’re like, our relationship is here on Tuesday, and now two weeks later, suddenly it’s in a place I never imagined it could be. And I don’t really have a logical explanation for that, other than I’ve seen it happen over and over again. So they’re like, yeah, this is what happens.
Maggie
And here’s something that kind of falls into what happens when you start working on yourself, which we talked about a lot is this idea that acceptance goes both ways. Like, you accept yourself, you accept your partner, you invite them to accept you. And the process of accepting your own mistakes, errors, you know, things that you want to improve. It takes, it feels like it takes more work in the beginning, but it becomes less work in the end. What are your thoughts about that?
Lacey
I feel like I’ll just be really specific. Yeah. But like when I started working with you, I think like a phrase that I had on repeat was basically like, I just don’t want to do it again. Mm-hmm. Like do it meaning like screw up in a marriage basically, like I didn’t want to get divorced again, and all that is I feel like I just didn’t know. I just didn’t know how I was going to not do that again, kind of thing. Right? And so I feel like what that led to was I was just very picky about every single thing Kenny would do. You know what I mean? Like, oh, does this mean like, you’re not the right person, or I’m gonna mess it up again or whatever. And it just like really led to like, a significant amount of mental drama.
Lacey
But, that was just like, really, I mean, a daily impactor, I think on me because it just felt like I knew we were moving toward that place where, you know, we could get engaged, so it just like really kicked up the spin for me. It was almost like I feel like what you did our whole time working together was just give me permission like, okay, he did that. What if that’s okay? Okay, yeah, okay, like he said that what I thought, okay, okay, like that happened. What if that’s okay, and like, that just transformed everything for me because it was almost like I just like didn’t trust myself enough at that time, and obviously, I hired you because I trusted you. And so when you were like, Yeah, what if that’s just okay. I was like, I mean, I think it might be. I think you might have a point.
Lacey
And as soon as it was just like all, I was just able to find that piece of myself where I was, like, most of it is just okay. And he’s just great. And I don’t have to worry about any of that. Like, it just got so much simpler. And again, like, I think this applies to all areas of life. Like, I feel like this is the majority of what I did my clients all day, they’re like, Oh, my God, this thing happened in business. I’m like, what, which is fine, everyone’s you know, anything, but it’s really hard when you’re in it on your own, and you sometimes need that reflection.
Maggie
Absolutely. Now, one of the things that happens always when we’re coaching and when we’re growing in any part of our life is we will find things about ourselves that we’re not delighted about. How did you handle that when you would be like, Oh, damn, I don’t think I like this.
Lacey
I think one of the gifts that I’ve had over time and Being in the personal development world and doing my work and therapy, and whatever it is to kind of train myself that when I see something I don’t like about myself to get excited.
Maggie
Oh my gosh, tell us more no one that I know gets excited. Tell us everything about this.
Lacey
Well, it’s like, oh my gosh, what a beautiful opportunity, right? Like, oh my gosh, like, this is amazing to spot this is they get to do something about it, or like, Oh, my, like, I remember there are quite a few things that, you know, came up in our time together, but just like a huge opportunity for me to be like, Oh, I can like hold myself to a higher standard here. I can show up in a way that feels more in alignment with who I am or like, you know, just when I was like, being so picky about everything, and then like really was able to see that like, I just like that was such a cool opportunity to be like, this is not who I choose to be like, so I feel like it’s like the more we can get excited about it, the faster we move through it. Like I think the longer we spend beating ourselves up about it. The irony is the slower changes.
Maggie
Yes. Okay. Here’s what came to me, there’s an author named Steven Pressfield who wrote a book called The War of Art. He’s written several I’m not sure if this is even from that book, but he said this like resistance comes up whenever you’re up to big things like in art, you’re creating something new. And his whole message is just welcome it. Just basically what you’re saying is like, just get excited. Oh, this is here. This means I’m growing great. Right? Totally. So amazing to think about it that way. I think for me that’s like a takeaway from this episode is I know I could just choose to get excited instead of frustrated Wow, right.
Lacey
Yeah, and because like, once you see it, it’s like so cool, because you can do something about it. Like I remember even as having one conversation where it was kind of like, you know, this is a really hard realization Is this okay? And I was like, I can do really hard things when I see the reason or see the point. It’s like until I see what’s blocking me it’s very hard. So like the I just get excited about the block. realization because I’m like well finally I can do something about it right?
Maggie
And listen everyone if you are listening do not get excited please understand that they see is a therapist with a master’s degree in psychology. She’s a coach, she like she’s been doing this a long time. It takes a high level of commitment to get to that point. So don’t be sad. Just be in the possibility that when you have the moment where you practice self-inquiry, and when you practice self-compassion and when you practice you know, all the things that I teach on this podcast and that Lacey teaches and in her business like it gets easier over time. I just want to say that because I know someone is sitting right now and saying I do not get excited.
Lacey
I did not always get excited either.
Maggie
True. What is it fun memory that you have from coaching?
Lacey
I mean, I think getting to text you and I was engaged was pretty fun.
Maggie
When Lacey hired me they were dating and they were in a committed long term relationship and all that. And it was like this process where you kind of like know you’re probably gonna get engaged, but you haven’t quite gotten engaged yet. And she texted me, we just got engaged. And that was a there were tears on both sides of that.
Lacey
What I think was so special in particular about that was when I hired you, it’s like, I think I said this earlier, but like, I knew I could see that on the other side, but I just like, knew I had to, like handle my own shit before that. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I feel like I even remember saying to you, on like, one of our first calls like I can feel that like, I’m the reason we’re not engaged yet and like, I would love to be able to shift that and it was just so cool to be able to do that in our time together. And then you have to share that with you because it was kind of like the culmination of like, exactly what I heard, you know, that I heard you get engaged with because I can just feel like I know that like I am like blocking this.
Maggie
Totally. And what did you like about working with me? I mean, obviously, we’re friends we know each other really well. You know me more intimately than most humans because you’ve seen all the behind the scenes of my business as well. What was something that you just liked?
Lacey
I think a couple of things. One is that I have certain philosophies, right. In terms of like, really, I also very much believe in like empowerment, and like, you can change yourself things like that. And so I think we just like very much aligned and not I think it would have been really hard for me if I went to someone else that like really felt like coming in to be part of it, or that didn’t necessarily have a lot of the same just like values and views that I do even in just in terms of how we believe and mindset and all that kind of stuff. Like it was just so important for me to find someone that shares that.
Lacey
And so I think that was like huge. And then, you know, just obviously, like you said, I know you super well and so I know that like who you are on the front of the scenes is who you are behind the scenes too. And so just like that congruence is really important. To me, and I’ve seen you and Mariano in person many times in bed with you guys. So I also saw that congruence in the fact that like you do have the relationship that you say you have and so all of that just like the value the integrity very congruent, it just made it a no brainer.
Maggie
I love that congruence as you know is like one of my values and I sometimes joke with my clients is like, if I’m taking a day off or something like listen, the marriage coach got a marriage, right. We have to start at home. So I love that that’s just something that you value because it’s something that I hold so dear, as well. So what was hard or does anything stands out as just being really challenging about being in a coaching process working through your relationship? What was something that stands out as just being a little bit hard to process?
Lacey
I think the hardest thing for me although like definitely like the best way to was the like not communicating every single thing that really took like a significant amount of like effort on my end, which sounds funny because like I think, you know, you would almost think like, it takes way more effort to like, communicate everything. You know what I mean? And for me, I was like kind of the opposite. Like, again, I’m like such a communicator, like I remember in our first session, one of Maggie’s rules is like, no conversation without context. Yes. And I was like, oh, not a problem, but like, it really was a problem. And so I think it took a lot of emotional energy to be perfectly honest to just like, shut the heck up sometimes. Yeah, it’s such a gift. And I like to think one of the things I like value most in my relationship now is that like, I don’t have to say everything all the time. You know what I mean? But yeah, I like that. That took some work.
Maggie
So that’s like breaking a habit, right? Any habit that we break that we’ve made, we have been doing something for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, however long and we To break that habit, it’s going to feel hard. And here’s what I want to clarify. Because some people over process, I call it over processing when we, you know, I’m that person, I could talk to you for five hours about something and be just delighted to like to do that. And some people under process or like over communicator under communication. So as we talk about Lacey, I just want to also clarify like as you listen to this podcast and you think about yourself, some of you need to talk more. Some of you need to be more explicit about your desires and your wants and how you want things to go in your relationship and your area of growth is to find the place whether it’s courage, whether it’s working through resentments or other things to have the conversations that you’ve been avoiding, right.
Maggie
But some of you are like Lacey, where you have talked more than enough, and what you need to do is find the space where do we need to have a couple’s decision about all these things, or can we just move on from this thing? And to give you kind of a little light-hearted example, before I was a coach or anything like that I worked in HR for many years, and I was a training director in a law firm. And I used to have to, you know, working with lawyers, whenever we had meetings, I would have to have all my reasons, you know, my 54 reasons for whatever I wanted to do because the lawyers requested me. And then I met my husband, Mariano, and I’ll say, Hey, I think we should do x and he was like, okay, and I’m like, wait, you don’t want to hear my 54 reasons? And we joke about it now, but I have them ready to hear though.
Lacey
I think something I’ll just add to that. You may have even done an episode on this. And maybe you could just like tell me to stop and tell them where to go. But, something that was really helpful for me was like your anger scale, but I don’t think I really applied it to anger per se even but it was just like If the emotional level is not above a five like I don’t need to say anything. Yes, yes. And that was super helpful for me like, again, I think you sometimes context it in anger. I don’t necessarily feel like anger was like my driving emotion. It was just like emotionality, right? Yes. So if I would have something that like, felt like I wanted to say something or like I felt the compulsion or whatever it would just like be helpful to be like, this is like, under a five or over a five. Yes. And I know you really love DBT like I do, and they have that. I don’t know if you know what I’m talking about. But it’s basically like that threat, or fear or threat balance that they talk about.
Maggie
Oh, tell us about that. I’m not familiar with that.
Lacey
So I love fear threat balance. I recommend it to my clients a lot. But it’s basically like if you have an emotion, okay, the fear you would scale it on a scale of zero to 10. Okay. And then you would scale the actual threat. Okay? Zero at a time. So like, let’s just give an example like my husband is working late tonight. I might be a nine in terms of how I feel about that, like the intensity. I feel right? The actual threat of him working. late tonight, maybe like a three? Ah, yeah. And so it really helps us to, like manage that.
Lacey
And so what I’ve even said to some clients is like, if the actual threat like to take from what you’ve taught me, like, the actual threat is below five, like in your business or ever, like don’t do anything, just manage your emotions. And so I think that that was really really helpful to me even and just like managing how much you’re needing to share what you want to say here how much you want to make this an issue like if it’s below a certain number, just keep it to yourself and like, I don’t even feel like I have to do the labeling anymore. I did for a while, but I feel like now it’s just like natural to me, where I’m just like, oh, that’s not a big deal. But, but initially, that labeling was really, really helpful.
Maggie
I love that I did do an episode just on the anger scale. So yeah, we’ll link to it in the show notes. So Lacey explained that spectacularly. But if you just want to hear me go step by step on the anger scale, you can click on that in the show notes and hear a whole episode just on that. And I love what you said that I use it. Initially, I used it and developed it with a client who was experiencing a lot of anger. And so we use it for that. But really any intense emotion, you could do it as a fear scale, you could use it as a disappointment scale, any emotion that you process, often, whether it helps you do is develop a different relationship to that emotion.
Maggie
And the way I look at it is we think the emotion, whether it’s anger, disappointment, whatever it may be, is a toggle switch, like on or off, like if you’re imagining turning on a light at home. But really, it’s more like a dimmer switch, where it’s degrees. And the labeling, as you mentioned, allows you to build awareness and understand that, Oh, this is a dimmer, it’s not a toggle, it’s just not like it’s on zero to 60. It’s like oh, this is a three right and then as You brilliantly explained, it’s like once you do that a few times several weeks over and over again, it becomes your natural new normal to just think that way. And in that way, I love this explanation because some of the things we do in coaching, they feel very foreign when you start them, and especially if you’ve never done anything like that, but it becomes easy and natural over time. So I love that example. Thank you for sharing that.
Lacey
Absolutely.
Maggie
So I think this is a great opportunity since we’re talking about some of the coaching tools and you mentioned DBT, which for anyone who’s not familiar is Dialectical Behavior Therapy. But I’d love to talk with you a little bit about the differences between therapy and coaching. And some of the best things when it comes to relationships and marriage. Some of the best things to use coaching for and some of the best things to use therapy for.
Lacey
Yeah, totally. I mean, the way that I think about it a lot is that therapy is kind of used to get you to baseline, and coaching is to get you past that. And obviously, again, broad generalization, but I think it’s a helpful frame because I do know a lot of people who will be like, well, I went to therapy, but like, it wasn’t that great. And I was super frustrated. I’m like, Well, once you go to therapy for and they’re like, going to therapy, because I was like, trying to figure out my next job or something like that. And I’m like, Well, yeah, like, that might not be the best use of therapy but that might be a great use of coaching or vice versa.
Lacey
Like, I got coaching, and it’s like, really not helping, like, I have so much anxiety and I’m feeling really depressed, like, yeah, that might not be the best use of coaching. Right? Yeah. And so I think that sometimes it’s just that, you know, we’re looking to one or the other, instead of seeing them as really helpful, like, they can both be really helpful in their own ways. You know, so it’s not like therapy versus coaching. It’s like, there are certain things like if you’re, you know, under baseline that therapy can really, really really be the most effective for and then there are certain things like if you’re over baseline and trying to go further, that Coaching can really be the most effective for. So they really can live together instead of like, apart. You know what I mean?
Maggie
I love that so much. And you know, I love using metaphors and analogies. And as I thought about therapy and coaching, and I love them and like, this is a show that’s all about dance all the time. It’s coaching and therapy, not anything else. And so here’s my most recent analogy, it’s like a fork and a knife. Sometimes you need a fork, and for the things, you need a fork for, you really do need a fork, right? And if you’re trying to like cut a steak, like a fork is not really going to get you very far you really need a knife, right? It doesn’t make the fork better than the knife, it doesn’t make the knife worse than the fork. It’s just they are two tools that you use for different results you want to create.
Lacey
I love that that’s so spot on. It’s so true. And I think, you know, again, like where our frustration comes in when we use the wrong tool. wrong thing like when I’m trying to cut my steak with a fork like I will feel frustrated.
Maggie
Yes. I love that you pointed that out because I do see that in a lot of my clients, like you mentioned, oh, I went to therapy for career, well, maybe that wasn’t the best fit. It doesn’t mean therapy is bad. And it doesn’t mean you can’t get help in your career. It’s like, Wait, hold on, what’s the better fit?
Lacey
I also think I’ll just add one little thing there, too. I also think like just coming from the therapy world, like, pretty much all relationship counseling in that space is done in conjunction with a couple. Right? Do you know what I mean? Not that you couldn’t go if your husband wasn’t willing to come or whatever. But you see what I mean? Like, yeah, sort of like that’s the model. And so I think that’s something really cool about your model and about coaching is that it really I don’t think most therapists frame in the same way that you do.
Maggie
Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I think that there’s a place in this space for practicing things together as a couple There’s also a place and a space for processing things individually. And what I see over and over again, is there are many times this is not always but there are many times, and I’ve had therapist, colleagues, and clients who’ve told me about this multiple times over where some therapy sessions can very easily become he said, she said sessions. And unless that therapist is very highly skilled, and a couple, you know, has done a lot of their own work all ready to come into that space ready to do the deeper work. It’s very, it’s very common for you to go to therapy and say, oh, it didn’t work. It doesn’t mean that it didn’t work or that it couldn’t work. It just wasn’t a good fit. Like the example, you gave before with the career thing. Maybe we need to try a different combination of things.
Lacey
It’s so interesting because I’m not sure if I even said this to you all I might have but Kenny and I have talked about this But where it’s almost like, at that point where I hired you, if we had instead decided to go to counseling together, I actually feel like it would have been detrimental. not helpful. Because I feel like the problem literally was not in the context of us. It was like me really freaking out over like, how am I not going to get divorced again? And like all this stuff that was like, do you know what I’m saying? Like, I’m sure you can see that from the back end.
Lacey
But like, I didn’t, I didn’t have all these like pressing issues together. But like it felt like it sometimes because I was bringing a lot of old on process stuff and because I was really in fear around like, Am I gonna screw it up again, you know? And I feel like if we would have been challenged to go to counseling together, I feel like it would have really centered around like these, like micro arguments we were having or whatever. Yeah, instead of like the bigger picture, which is like I’m just scared shitless right now that I’m going to get divorced again. And so it’s It would have almost like taking us down an unhelpful road instead of like really made us
Maggie
I think that that’s not even like certain styles of coaching or therapy would both be surface-level like there are types of coaching that are very sort of action-oriented and doesn’t delve into mindset and how we’re talking about things and how we’re approaching things. And it’s like, we focused a lot on the root causes like, okay, and I’ll link to this episode, I have an episode called The Five Why’s where we just talked about ask why five times, let’s find the real thing that’s causing it right. So in the beginning, it’s like, oh, I’m annoyed because he left the peanut butter on the table, whatever.
Maggie
But it’s like, Why, oh, why you and we keep asking. It’s like, oh, because if he keeps doing that, what if I do worse tomorrow? Why maybe there’s just much, much bigger fear underneath it. And when you solve for that, and then we address that, that’s when you are able to make such progress that feels like nonlinear like we were talking about earlier, because you’re as you always like, To say that I remember from our time together, you’re solving the right problem. Yeah, yeah. Now, this is fun for me, by the way, for everyone listening, it’s like, because I know Lacey so well, and I know the things that she’d say I would just repeat the things that I’ve heard her say before.
Lacey
It’s really hard not to take your own advice at that point, right. Yeah, really puts you in a different position.
Maggie
Absolutely. Okay, so one of the things I’m starting on the podcast whenever I have guests is I’m pulling out the questions for couples journal. And just for fun, I’m just opening it to a random page and asking a random question, so I have no idea what page I’m gonna be on. What’s gonna happen? Um, let’s see.
Lacey
I gotta stop you before you do that again. Because, you know, we got to talk about what Kenny likes the most about coaching.
Maggie
Okay, yeah. Tell me about that.
Lacey
He specifically like wrote it out. I have to share it because I made him write it out. Yeah, tell him if I don’t he’s gonna be like you are kidding.
Maggie
Tell us what did you say?
Lacey
I think what he said was really interesting. I think it goes along with a lot of what we were saying. But he was basically saying that you know, kind of give us the permission to not just be right, but make things right. Mm-hmm. Which I really agree with. And he talks a lot about how, you know, it felt like we were both coming in with patterns from past relationships that kind of had nothing to do with our current relationship. And then we were both kind of trying to critique each other. And it was just, like, hard not to, like get stung by that or have hurt by that, but like, by bringing you in, it was like, You weren’t acting as an arbitrator, you know, but like as really just like a non-bias like party to like, help us see patterns. And just like being able to look at that in that way was so key because we kind of weren’t doing that to each other. We were both just doing Trying to like make it right together, which I really agree with.
Maggie
It’s so good. Thank you, Kenny. Shout out. Thank you. That was a thoughtful response we appreciate it. That’s awesome. Okay, ready for a question? This is a fun one think of a role model that you had growing up and why did you look up to them?
Lacey
I think like someone that pops up for me as my grandfather so he was an entrepreneur he owned several businesses he just was like the head of our family and just kind of like always like in charge and taking care of everyone and I just like admired how much like strength he had and I really admired how he just like it’s so funny because it’s like totally what I value now but how he just did whatever he wanted. Right? Which is like so my philosophy in business now too, but he like really like, you know, March to his own set of rules and I just like always hooked up to that so much alike, especially like, as a kid who, you know, really felt like I was supposed to follow the rules and all that kind of stuff, just like watching how he lived was always super cool.
Maggie:
That’s awesome. And love that so much. Okay. So I know most of your work is with coaches, right? Service providers, different sorts of service providers, but you have a fabulous mindset journaling email program where you get emails for like 90 days. And I personally use it. I love it. It’s called Happy Thoughts. Can you tell us a little bit about Happy Thoughts, which anyone can use Happy Thoughts, right?
Lacey:
So Happy Thoughts is our podcast and then the journaling program is Happy Magic. Okay. I’m just saying that in case anyone’s looking for it, but, yeah, basically, I just believe so much in mindset work and so much in journaling. And I think like what you can create in your life with 15 minutes in journaling a day is just absolutely mind-blowing. And what it also does is it really helps you focus on something. So, you know, I think that you know, that’s like the value of like relationship coaching, for example, is like you’re coming in, you’re focusing on a specific challenge point and you’re trying to move the needle forward. So what Happy Magic really helps you do is kind of the same thing. You pick one focus, you focus on it for 90 days, you journal around it, you do mindset work around it. And so I think there’s just kind of like so much magic and giving something our energy and attention like that. Again, just, just like coaching and yeah, it shows up in your email inbox every day to make it super easy. And I think it’s just, I do it myself. Like, I mean, I wrote the prompts and I still do it myself. Cause it just is so helpful what comes out of it?
Maggie:
Yeah, I’ve done it more than once. And every time I pick a different goal and then every time different things come up. So even the same questions will just elicit a different response depending on what you’re working on. So we will definitely link to Happy Magic and Happy Thoughts, the podcast on the show notes. So anyone who wants to check those out find out more about that, they will have that there.
Lacey:
I think something just cool to say there, is that like like this is the work I do. Like I am obsessed with mindset. I am obsessed with like looking at yourself and I like still needed support and coaching around this. So like, I think it’s just important to say that cause they think sometimes like, I know you have some coaches that listen as well and some clients are therapists and all of that. And I think that there’s almost like can be a stigma with that where it’s like, look, I should know better. I should know this, or I should be able to handle this or whatever, I just think it’s like beautiful when you can be like, I can be like a mindset expert. And, I totally see myself as one in so many ways. And like, I am still in need of help sometimes. And I needed someone from the outside to help me look at things a different way.
Maggie:
I totally agree with that in my thought about it is we don’t see our own blind spots, we literally can be experts in whatever the thing is that we’re experts in and not see our own blind spots. And having someone to reflect that back to whether it’s a coach, whether it’s a therapist, whether it’s a mastermind program, anything like that, where you are put in a room of people that are looking to help you with the blind spots not complain about them, right. You’re looking to really investigate them and then move forward from them. It’s so incredibly powerful. And I just believe in the power of coaching so, so, so much. I always just think it’s because we don’t see our blind spots. We could be going around in circles for years. And then we worked with a coach and suddenly we have like exponential growth and it’s because, oh, we’re not, we’re no longer walking in circles. Now we’re walking towards the goal.
Lacey:
Absolutely. Perfectly said.
Maggie:
I love that. Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up today?
Lacey:
No, just I love you and appreciate you so much. And I’m just like so grateful for our work. And I feel like, you know, a great testimonial to give it to everyone. It’s like, we literally got engaged because of our work together. So if you’re thinking about it, whether you’re married or not, like it was just so invaluable to me.
Maggie:
I love that so much. And you know, I’ve told you this before, but I get to record it for posterity. When we met, I was just starting, you know, transitioning from an HR career into life coaching. And so many of the things that were my dreams and hopes are now my reality, right? It’s like how I live and what I do. And one of the biggest honors forever for the rest of my life will be the fact that you helped me grow at a moment in my life where I just, I that’s exactly what I needed. And it was so powerful and so beautiful for me. And then to be able to help you grow in a moment of your life, that’s what, you know, what you needed. I just think is one of the biggest blessings of my life. So thank you.
Lacey:
You’re so welcome. Thank you.
Maggie:
Okay, everyone check out the show notes. We’re going to link to Happy Magic. We’re going to link to The Anger Scale we mentioned earlier. Remember all you need to have a thriving five-star marriage is perspective, partnership, and pleasure, and all three of those things are in your control. We’ll see you next time.